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160616 | FBHDG | Anyone know what the digging is about, in the fields behind copper house pool

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Anyone know what the digging is about, in the fields behind copper house pool

Dave Parker's photo.
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Ken Townend
Ken Townend Possibly laying irrigation pipework. To water crops. Getting ready for dry summer. Or drainage pipes, but would think those would go downwards.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Archeological dig, same people that did the Quay.
Graham Coad
Stephen Cornish
Ricky Owen
Ricky Owen Possibly groundworks for solar instalation?
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey They can't build on those fields anyway so that is one thing out of the way.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield What can't build don't you believe it. They are going to build.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham can you enlightened this Gentleman. You are much better at it than me??.
Ken Townend
Ken Townend According to the farmer that sold them to De Savery, they cannot be built on.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield I will let Graham enlighten you all.
Ken Townend
Ken Townend Come on then Graham. What have HTC allowed now?
Graham Coad
Graham Coad I know nothing about the reasons for any digging in Riviere Fields and for now can only speculate like the rest of the town.

The fields are marked for protection under the emerging Hayle Neighbourhood Plan, are part of the setting of the Port of Hayle
Mining World Heritage site.

No doubt the owners would like to develop on those fields, but there is no planning permission and no planning application has been submitted.

Yet.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham are you telling me that no building is going to take place behind Clifton terrace!
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham this is the post??
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey They can't on that land trust me unless they pay a planning councillor it's not allowed to be built on that's why de savary sold it again and ING
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey There is some sort of order or heritage status on them if remember rightly.
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey Land is rented by symons from Godrevy farm
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey Was owned by ING
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Come on Graham type a bit quicker, and put Neil right.
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey The farm was owned by a close family friend so I know
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey He stopping for bacon butties give Graham a chance lol
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey Listing Text
HAYLE PHILLACK
SW 5638-5738

9/149 Farm buildings immediately west of
Riviere Farmhouse

GV II
Farm buildings, including stables, cartshed, shippons, engine house and
granaries and fodder stores in the lofts, originally built to accommodate
the pack-mules and horses of the Cornish Copper Company. Circa mid C19.
Built for the Cornish Copper Company. Granite rubble, copper slag blocks
and granite dressings. Hipped grouted scantle slate roofs, some corrugated sheeting.
Plan: Irregular inverted F-shaped plan plus two small wings at right angles
to the rear. 2-storey part is L-shaped adjoining bank barns with left hand
front wing built into a high bank on the left and main larger barn built
into bank at rear. Otherwise single storey: engine house at rear middle;
swill kitchen at rear right; cartshed at front left; stables at front right;
and L-shaped stable and cartshed at far right.
Exterior: Regular elevations with original doorway and window openings.
Main barn has 2-storey front and there is a 2-storey front returning in
front on the left. Main barn has ground floor doorway with loading doorways
over and regularly disposed window openings. Other front has 3 ground floor doorways; the left-hand part is a symmetrical 3 window front with central doorway. Mostly ledged doors, shuttered windows to ground floor openings and
2 light windows to first floor opening; all with top light ventilators.
Interior: Where inspected most of the original fittings have been removed
but the floors and roof structures are original.
Sources: Hayle Town Trail, by Brian Sullivan.

Listing NGR: SW5604138251

This text is a legacy record and has not been updated since the building was originally listed. Details of the building may have changed in the intervening time. You should not rely on this listing as an accurate description of the building.

Source: English Heritage
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Maybe we are at cross purposes here, We were talking about the fields.
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey Grade 2 listed agricultural land to I believe
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey This link has a nice read about the land there
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Neil, some of those fields were "protected" under the old Penwith Plan, policy TV2, BUT that could be overruled if a planning benefit was extremely good for the area.
That was the reason given when Penwith District Council in 2008 granted an outline p
lanning application for the ING master plan which included permission to build on the fields behind Clifton Terrace ( That outline planning still stands, Trevor)

As the current Cornwall Plan nears completion, protections under the old Penwith Plan get weaker and weaker, and Cornwall's "emerging plan" starts to take precedence. This had no specific protections for Phillack and the Towans.

Hayle Neighbourhood Plan started in 2014, and encouraged by responses to surveys that strongly wanted protection for the Towans, the steering group included protections of the fields around Riviere Farm, which were again strongly endorsed during public consultation.

If the policies we have in the Neighbourhood Plan make it through Cornwall Council, an Independent Planning Inspector and a Hayle Referendum Before Christmas hopefully) THEN the policies in the Hayle Neighbourhood Plan become effectively binding planning policy for Hayle that Cornwall Council cannot overrule.

Hayle Neighbourhood Plan cannot prevent building on land which already has full or outline planning permission.

If the current owners DO hope to build on those fields they or any other developers will have a six week consultation period soon where they can put their case to Cornwall Council BUT it would have to be a really strong case that has great strategic benefit to Cornwall.
Trevor Maxfield
Tony Hancock
Tony Hancock New foundation for the Hayle mosque. Or could it be new weatherspoons.
Marshall Hutchens
Marshall Hutchens Check out page 23 of todays Western Morning News Homes supplement for possible answers.
Marshall Hutchens
Marshall Hutchens P.S. Sure Andrew, Phil or Alex at KLP Kitchener Land and Planning will answer your questions.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Suprised by the lack of response to Marshall Hutchens post, regarding the sale of land with outline planning.
Come on Councillors dont leave it all to Graham, we all know you follow these posts.
Neil Harvey
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Two years was enough!
Ken Townend
Ken Townend Nick Farrar, used to be on here quite regular. Where are you, the New Mayor.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Busy working long hours on his expanded business!!
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Trouble is Trevor, Marshall Hutchens referred to p23 of property supplement in the Western Morning News last week, and many/most of us don't get that paper so we have no idea what land it refers to!
Chris Hollow
Chris Hollow Archaeological survey I was told ??
Graham Coad
Graham Coad That's probably right Chris. No doubt owners have aspirations to sell or build on every bit of land but they are up against CC Land allocation, World Heritage, emerging Hayle Neighbourhood Plan....
David Philp
David Philp Hope your wrong Graham,out walking early this morning,went past here about half 7,there was already someone starting the digger up!
Graham Coad
Graham Coad The three fields behind and beside Clifton Terrace definitely DO have outline planning permission for houses, and have had since 2008 David.

The others closer to Phillack Churchtown and Mexico lane do not.
Chris Hollow
Chris Hollow My sister asked the guys doing it I think.
Chris Hollow
Chris Hollow That is the first step i believe ?
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Linden Homes understimated the strength of the World Heritage status in stopping development behind Penpol.
This may well be heading in that direction.
Chris Hollow
Chris Hollow Or it could be giant moles ??
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish The mole people are back!
Marshall Hutchens
Marshall Hutchens Just in case anyone missed it. Advert dated Saturday 18th June 2016.
Marshall Hutchens's photo.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Ah right, those are the areas that were granted outline planning permission in 2008, and detailed planning is being prepared for submission on the actual harbourside plot.

Thanks for the clarification.
Graham Coad
Chris Hollow
Graham Coad
Graham Coad
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Not a criticism of you. Surely this must now be looked into, as the plan is negated, because it shows that it is being sold with outline permission. Perhaps people will now realise that the fields are going to be built on.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Trevor, the sites shown in the "For Sale" image ARE the sites with outline planning permission, dating back some years now.

As you will recall from South Quay and ASDA a common practice is to sell plots to "development partners"
...See more
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Which does link in, the digs are a first stage before development
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Yes, detailed planning application for North Quay, "Hillside" and "Riviere Fields" expected in weeks now..
Helen Riches
Helen Riches Gutted! All of the wildlife that lives in the towans & it's surrounds will be under threat again. All of the lizards, slow worms, glow worms, buzzards, orchids etc. to disappear under yet more housing. Do we really need it?
Helen Riches
Helen Riches Gutted! All of the wildlife that lives in the towans & it's surrounds will be under threat again. All of the lizards, slow worms, glow worms, buzzards, orchids etc. to disappear under yet more housing. Do we really need it?
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Helen, these are 3 farm fields not Towans dune system, and they have had outline planning permission since 2008, it should not come as a surprise.

All the Hayle Homes allocations from Government and Cornwall Council and the Hayle Neighbourhood plan have accepted and taken account of the homes to be built on this western section of Riviere Farm.
Helen Riches
Helen Riches If you actually look at the parcel of land, I believe it's the one referred to as 'hillside', it includes all of the towans behind Clifton Terrace, leading up to the cricket ground. This is the ecosystem I am referring to. I believe that the trees behind Clifton Terrace are covered by TPOs.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Yes Helen, that is all part of the ING Master Plan scheme given outline planning consent in 2008 and still valid. As part of the Section 106 agreements there was mitigation of the loss of habitat by reverting some nearby agricultural land back to dune habitat to compensate for the loss.

All was debated, the nature and environmental authorities consulted and agreements reached back in 2007/8.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham I am confused,when I read back your response to Neil Harvey.
Are you the council delegates responder, or is it that elections are not coming up? Come on the rest of you councillors.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis How long does outline planning permission last for?
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Gail, there is no time limit for planning permission if the works have been commenced.
The ING master Plan outline planning permission was granted in 2008, but as parts of the scheme have been not only commenced but completed, there is no time constraint.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis Thank you, you are a mine of information :)
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Trevor, as always I post on my own account here, not as an official representative of the council. If you want official stuff go to the council's Facebook Page.

I have more spare time and inclination to come here than most.


Although a few councillors may have Facebook Pages most choose not to get too involved here, it's their choice, and we must respect that. Please email them, phone or write a letter in the usual ways if you want a response. Their details are all on the HTC Website.
Neil Harvey
Neil Harvey Right I'm gonna end this if you want to know what is going on instead of speculating things go and ask, simple as that end of story.
Dave Parker
Dave Parker So it is moles then ??
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Trevor Maxfield got it right all the way back to the second comment, but not many people seem to read preceding comments, I suppose its not that easy on a phone??

ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY


by MOLA
Graham Coad
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish Yup. Certainly looks like moles. Anyone called environmental protection?
Ken Townend
Ken Townend "ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY". ie., testing the ground to see if building will be feasible. As on North Quay!
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish I was joking btw :)
Nicholas David St John-Savage
Nicholas David St John-Savage So to be clear is rivere fields development going ahead now? Ie is this "archeological survey" merely ground work for it?
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Nicholas yes, I have been in a meeting with representatives of the developer and architects who hope to have a detailed planning application in within weeks.
These digs will be for the architectural survey.
Nicholas David St John-Savage
Nicholas David St John-Savage What sad news, thanks for letting me know Graham.
Do please post up the details when they come up.
Particularly sad to lose this greenfield land and can't imagine how the traffic flows will affect Phillack and Clifton
Ken Townend
Ken Townend Disgusting, is what I say. Well done HTC.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad You are nine years too late Ken, that was when there was the consultation and debates leading up to Penwith District council approving the overall outline planning application!

Almost half of Hayle Town councillors weren't even on the council then, a
nd Penwith District Council ceased to exist the day after!

Without the concession to build on those three fields, none of the harbour repairs would have happened, and the port would have been closed by now......
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield In your opinion! I was fed up with hearing this at the time, so let's not go down that route again.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis I am glad we have at least half the councillors on HTC :)
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Fact Trevor, the same now as then!
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Can you remember the TV show Call My Bluff?
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Have you all been asleep? We on Clifton opposed the development, with very little support from the town. Riviere farm fields are the last fields on the coast side until you reach North cliffs.
All now given away to line the pockets of some developer and their shareholders, do you know anybody who will be able to afford one of these houses?
Chris Hollow
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish Looks like it's pointless anymore complaining now then. We're wasting energy here.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis It is worth discussing it if it means other greenfield sites can be protected in the future.So much is being lost to developers, it is sad.
Like · 1 · 20 hrs
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Well said Gail, that's exactly what we are trying to do with the Hayle Neighbourhood Plan.

http://np.hayle.net/
Like · 1 · 20 hrs
Ken Townend
Ken Townend I am certain that if information on allowing building on those fields had been in any Neighbourhood Plan, no-one in their right mind would say Yes to it.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis But if more people say no to it and voice an opinion it will help the people developing the plan and in the future we will protect areas from developers
Graham Coad
Graham Coad You simply can't "Say No" to permissions already granted Gail.
Gail Willis
Gail Willis but we can to other areas that are in the Neighbourhood plan. If people object or agree and say what they want protected then it might save this sort of issue in the future
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Already done in the Neighbourhood Plan, those stages have been passed now and soon we start the final 6 week formal consultation period when submissions can be made on the draft plan as it stands.
Nicholas David St John-Savage
Nicholas David St John-Savage It's a scandal. Will ruin Phillack and the towans...and, more significantly it's the thin end of the wedge, the whole of Rivière farm will come next. Anything to mitigate it and limit it must be attempted..
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Check out the Hayle Neighbourhood Plan Nicholas......
Outline planning permission was granted for the three fields around the back and side of Clifton Terrace in 2008, (all the mitigation for the overall development was agreed then) BUT the HNP seeks to protect the remainder.


The owners WILL want to build on more but will have to seek new planning permission for that.

http://np.hayle.net/
Dave Parker
Dave Parker Is this not true then?

By law, any planning permission granted expires after a certain period. Generally, unless your permission says otherwise, you have three years from the date it's granted to begin the development.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Dave I explained on another group I think....Once you 'make a start' on a project you have planning permission for, the time limit is finished.... you can take as long as you like over the project.

This planning permission for the three fields around
...See more
Dave Parker
Dave Parker Ahhh I see, said the blind man ??
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham now might be a good time to tell the good people of Hayle, just how much or even an estimate, of how much ING payed towards the work that has been done on North Quay.
As you imply that this work would not have been done if planning permission hadn't been granted for Riviere farm fields.
And whilst you are typing could also tell us, how much was paid for by grants, and Cornwall rate payers.
Like · 1 · 15 hrs · Edited
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Absolutely,

Although the South West Regional Development Agency (SWRDA) had stepped in, to become partners with ING in the Harbour Development. a change of Government meant that Labour's SWRDA was disbanded by the Coalition Government


By this time the worldwide recession started in 2008 by the US Sub Prime Mortgage scandal and spreading Toxic Debt was biting deep and there had been little movement in the harbour project as the bottom had dropped out of UK waterside property market

Cornwall Council stepped into fill the gap and decided to follow the proposals for the Wavehub by doing the necessary work on the the access and infrastructure along North Quay, including the new bridge, roads, sewers, water, power and telecommunication services flood prevention quayside raising and the preparation of development plots.

It involved around £15-20million pounds of EU money and some £5million of Cornwall Council's own money.

All that infrastructure is now complete, the Marine Renewables Business Park has been built and opened with additional sourced funding. They expect to be full of tenants by the start of 2017, and the first experimental wave power device is now deployed to the wavehub.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield So it would be true to say ING did not pay anything, so the threat to walk away should have been seen as a bluff.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Of course not, without ING and their initial plan, the SWRDA would not have joined them as partners, and Cornwall Council would not have stepped in to replace them.

We would still have had broken down harbour covered in piles of weed strewn rubble and scrap.
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield The South west Regional development agency, are a Goverment dept spending our money, Cornwall Council spend our money. So we paid for it.
ING a Dutch Bank, are the ones that are walking away laughing.
,
Graham Coad
Graham Coad It is immaterial who paid. The issue *for me* is that Hayle has had many millions spent renovating it's harbours and infrastructure that simply would not have happened any other way.

Maybe fair exchange for the three broccoli fields by your house?
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield You might think so, as you are obviously not interested in the enviroment we live in.
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Well, if it's "Get Personal" time Trevor, the whole of Hayle is "Environment" , you are perhaps more interested in the bit by your house than the rest of Hayle?
Trevor Maxfield
Trevor Maxfield Graham the whole of the Town is being spoilt, by over development. I have no problem with brownfield development, the loss of green field is a step to far, I have said it before if people want to live in a City, they should move to a City. Cornwall has been drawing visitors from all over the world because of its uniqueness, not because of its likeness to other large towns and City's. If I wanted to live in a housing estate I would have bought a house in one. I wouldn't want to move into someone else's area and change it. That is what is happening to me, and others.
Like · 3 · 12 hrs
Ken Townend
Ken Townend All leads back to HTC selling the Town down the pan. I bet 99% of the people in Hayle had no idea what was going on with the green fields up there. The issue "for me and many other people of Hayle", is decisions like this should be publicised for discussion. Why do a survey for the Hayle Neighbourhood Plan and then just go ahead and build houses everywhere. No doubt it will be Penwith DC and Cwll Councils fault. Nothing to do with HTC, which is the usual answer.
Stephen Cornish
Stephen Cornish Very few councils publicise planning applications to masses so HTC not alone. However, it's possible to find things out if one bothers.
Ken Townend
Ken Townend I unfortunately don't have the time to be checking out planning applications every day. I live in the hope, that the councillors we elect, do their best for the town, in which some of them have lived, all their lives and should do their best to protect from Greedy developers. Or at least advertise what is happening. Which, give him his due., Graham is now doing through the medium of FB, but all a bit late in the case of Riviere Farm.
Like · 1 · 10 hrs
Graham Coad
Graham Coad Ken, Planning Applications ARE advertised, published in the Cornishman newspaper, on the Cornwall Council website, and on the agendas of council meetings. You can arrange to have agendas posted to you, (I think the Library has copies) or they are on th...See more
Ken Townend
Ken Townend Thanks for that Graham, but it is still expected that our elected councillors, will do their bit to protect our town from greedy developers. I always believed, from the previous owner, farmer brothers, (one sadly gone now), that it would never be built on. And as I always say. WHAT ABOUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE. FIRST. But thats the Governments problem, will be the reply.
Helen Riches
Helen Riches It's not just three broccoli fields though is it? (and it was cabbages last time I looked). These dunes & fields are a complex ecosystem, populated by some of our more elusive creatures. Adders, slow worms, sand lizards (all of which I understand to be protected species), live alongside countless other species of flora & fauna. There is a large population of stick insects (not native but, perfectly at home) in the brambles along the footpaths through the dunes & farm lands. This area should never have been excluded from the SSSI. Talk about 'pave paradise, put up a parking lot.' I don't think the reluctance of people wanting to see more houses going up on greenfield sites in Hayle is the preserve of residents from Clifton Terrace. I think many people in Hayle are concerned about similar proposals elsewhere. I think it's too easy to label us as 'nimby's' because we are one row of fairly isolated houses. But it's not just residents who use that land.
Like · 7 · 10 hrs

 

KLP Kitchener Land and Planning | Hayle Harbour - Major Development Opportunity | WMN

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tags for 160616 | FBHDG | Anyone know what the digging is about, in the fields behind copper house pool